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Wayne: Today, we’re asking a question I kind of have to battle with a lot personally. It’s “Is a creative career realistic?” This is a conversation I’ve had so many times with so many people. Very recently in fact, a good friend of mine was very much kind of being like, “I’m not sure.”
Cem: How’s that working for you, Wayne?
Wayne: Yeah. And I’m kind of like, “Well, thank you. And I’m good.”
Cem: That’s one of the hardest things, I guess, as well is the people around you. When you go off to something that isn’t the norm, a lot of people are going to try to speak you out of it.
Wayne: Most definitely. Most definitely. And I think as well it’s weird, right? And I don’t really get why, in this country particularly, I can’t speak for other countries, but this country particularly we really do kind of look at creative careers as kind of not worthy. It’s not a proper job. It’s not like a proper career. And yet the economy of the creative industries in this country, it is one of the fastest growing subsections of our economy. Creative industries as a whole obviously. The only industry that was growing during the recession. And yet we still go, “No, creative is not a proper job. You can’t make any money doing that.”
Cem: Yeah. Like you said, demand has gone up on these creative careers. But I think at the same time, people’s mentalities to actually go for a career like that have kind of fallen back. And obviously in a creative career, there is definitely a lot less opportunities, like the actual jobs roles exist.
Wayne: Well, I don’t even know if there is less opportunity.
Cem: I think they’ve increased, but it’s not like as easy as walking into any other job, is it?
Wayne: Yeah. The thing is, right, and I think this is why creative careers are kind of … Well, people do go, “Is it realistic?” Because you really have to prove yourself. It’s not like you can just set up a business selling something and be like, “This is my thing. I make it. Buy it.” It’s kind of like, well, loads of people can paint, anyone can act, anyone can sing. It’s like, “Yeah. But can you do it well? That’s the question.”
Cem: Do you have the X factor?
Wayne: Do you … Fuck off. Yes, do you have the X factor? Do you have the talent? And a multitude of other things, right? And the thing with creative industries is the bottom really, really sucks generally.
Cem: Which is where I guess a lot of creators spend a lot of that time for a long while.
Wayne: Yeah.
Cem: And I think that’s what people say is that, when you’re trying to get into a creative career, I think those first few years … As you say, talent, some people have some talent, but actually it’s a skill that you’ve got to build up over time. And until you get really good at something, you can’t reap the rewards or get the kind of roles or kind of get in front of the right people.
Cem: And so one of the big things, especially for creators, to understand that you are going to be eating dirt for a long time.
Wayne: Yeah.
Cem: You’re going to look like nothing’s progressing, very stagnant. And sometimes that can be really demotivating.
Wayne: But I’ve got to say, and this is a thing that I had to repeatedly say to my friend and actually almost ram it down his throat eventually ’cause it wasn’t going in, is I no longer subscribe … prescribe? Subscribe? Subscribe to the notion that you have to be a starving artist. I really don’t.
Wayne: Like when, is it Jeff Goins, released that book Real Artists Don’t Starve, I was like, “That is so my book,” which I actually only got about three or four chapters into. I really need to pick that up again ’cause it was a really good book. This idea that you have to be a starving artist is really not true, and I kind of feel like what I have managed to do so far is actually, having lived the lifestyle of a starving artist for about three or four years when I first moved to London, I’ve now managed to build a lifestyle where I can still be an artist but actually still earn as much if sometimes more than some of my other friends because I’ve developed other skills along the way. And the thing about having a creative career is you have to, when you’re starting, subsidize it with something else. The thing about having a creative career, which I think bugs me to no end, is the fact that a lot of the time creative careers, the people entering the creative careers aren’t seeing it as a business. And that’s not to say that they don’t necessarily go, “I am a business,” but they kind of get bogged down with the artistry that comes along with with being an artist.
Cem: Rather than the practicality.
Wayne: Right. And if anybody’s starting any business, they start off, unless they’re very, very fortunate, they usually start off having a day job, building a business on the side until it grows to the point where it can replace the day job, right? That’s what you did with What the Pitta and even actually, in a way, your individual clients for you video production stuff and your content production stuff. And having a creative career, whether that be a painter, photographer, musician, whatever, is actually no different. It’s just that it’s more long-term. It’s a long game. And you are right. You are probably going to have to eat dirt in a sense of you’re going to have to work multiple jobs. You are going to have to be going from job to job because maybe a good opportunity comes up. And with creative careers, generally they’re short-term. So it’s more like gig economy type stuff. So you’re having to move jobs quite a lot. But that doesn’t mean that the job that you get has to be really low-paying, unskilled work, like waitressing and flipping burgers. The thing that I love about when you say, oh, you’re an actor, it’s like, “Well, you better get learning that line then, “Do you want fries with that?”” It’s just not true. It doesn’t need to be that way.
Cem: So one of the other things that a lot of creatives struggle with is self-doubt. Like for yourself, how often do you kind of fall into that, “What the hell am I doing? Is this actually a realistic thing?”
Wayne: Yeah. So this is a really interesting kind of thing that does occasionally … I’ve never thought of giving up my career. I just want that on record. However, I have many times gone, “What the fuck am I doing with my life? Why have I decided to do this? Really what am I missing out on?”
Wayne: And then it’s a fleeting question usually because almost instantly, I go, “Well …” And this usually happens on the tube. I have existential crises on behalf of other people. I sat on the tube and I look around and I think … It’s usually on the way home more actually than it is on the way to work. People always used to say you’d get on the tube and you’d look around and be like, “Well, at least I love my job ’cause everybody else here doesn’t.”
Wayne: But actually, usually on the way home I get this thing where I kind of look around and I go, “You’re going to go home now, you’re probably going to have dinner, and you’re probably going to sit in front of the TV, watch Netflix for a few hours, and then go to bed and do the same thing tomorrow. And that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I’m going to go home and I’m going to be pursuing something that I’m super passionate about and then possibly get just an hour, an episode of something in before I go to bed just to wind down before I go to bed.”
Wayne: But my day’s not done until about 10:00 at night because I’m like, “I’ve got something to strive for.” And I kind of look at that and I kind of go, “I prefer having that something to strive for than the going home.” Don’t get me wrong. Every now and then, I’m like, “I just need to sit in front of the TV and zone out,” ’cause I’m naked every now and then. But that’s not my daily routine, and I much prefer that. I definitely much prefer that.
Cem: Yeah. I think that’s one big thing for creators. That’s for me how I used to look when I was going to work, being that person on the train. It was like, “I don’t want this life. This is not for me.” And I think sometimes that’s the pain of knowing, “Okay, I can get stuck” and that motivation to carry on.
Cem: But then a lot of the time, actually when you finally get to do the thing you love, there are those moments of motivation. Like I’m sure once you get a gig or you go to school and you train or when you get up on stage for a show, it’s those little moments that kind of motivate you so much that you don’t realize that you have these sort of high-end experiences that kind of you can relate back to and be like, “Wow, is this living?” in those moments. And they motivate so much actually.
Wayne: Yeah.
Cem: You get that taste and you’re like, “Wow, I need to have that again.”
Wayne: It is like a drug. I can’t speak for photographers and painters and writers and things like that because that’s much more solitary work.
Cem: But I do find even when I was doing that sort of stuff, when you’re being creative or even when I was designing stuff in Photoshop or editing stuff away and I watched something back, you’re in this kind of flow state and you’re like, “Wow, I’ve literally just been editing for two hours and I forgot myself for that moment.” And you’re in it.
Wayne: Yeah, you’re just enjoying it so much.
Cem: Yeah, you’re just enjoying it. And I’m saying for a photographer too. You take that picture and you’re like, “This is going to be beautiful when I start editing it when I get back to the studio.”
Cem: And I think there is sort of that excitement of, “I can’t wait to show this person this finished piece of work.”
Wayne: Yeah. And that reaction that you get when people see it and stuff like that. That is the moments that we live for as artists, whether that be somebody going to your photography exhibition and going, “Wow, that is fucking incredible.”
Wayne: And I think for me, the thing about having a creative career that makes it more realistic than not having a creative career … And this is always the crux for me, even when I ask myself, “Is this the right thing for me to be doing?” I think about it and I think, “Look, one day I’m going to be on my death bed,” right? “One day it’s going to happen, and I’m going to look back and sure, I might have pursued this creative career and never get anywhere with it,” right?
Wayne: “But if I have worked my ass off and I have enjoyed the journey along the way and not got anywhere, I would much prefer that, to look back at that, than to look back and go, “Well, you thought about doing it. You only gave up to …”” Let’s assume I’m like 90 on my death bed. “”You only tried for ten years of that 90 year life to get it off the ground. And then you gave up. And then you just did the Groundhog Day that everybody else does.””
Wayne: I always think about that moment and I just think, “Do you know what? To me, the answer is obvious. I’m just going to do the creative career because I just don’t want to look back and go, “Do you know what? You’ve kind of wasted your life doing something you really didn’t care about.””
Cem: So Wayne, to round off this episode, is a creative career realistic?
Wayne: If you love it and you are not content not doing it, then yes. But you obviously have to hedge your bets to a degree. You obviously have to make sure that you have a nice safety net and that you are not … I do not recommend living the starving artist lifestyle.
Wayne: If you can avoid that, then yes, most definitely realistic because what are you missing really provided that all of your needs are met in terms of financial stability, food on the table, all that stuff? So long as you have a way of providing those things for yourself and your family, what really are you missing by choosing not to pursue it? That’s what I would ask myself.
If you want any questions answered, or if you have any ideas for anythings you’d like us to address, send us an email, Wayne@powerfulnonsense.com or Cem@powerfulnonsense.com, or you can look us up on the Twitterz @PN_Podcast, and we will take it into consideration. And also, please do leave us a nice little review on the old iTunes. It really does help get the word out there for the show. Five stars or more, greatly appreciated.