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Wayne: So, today we’re going talking about something which is kind of linked to another episode that we’ve recently done. We’re talking about work emails and particularly doing them on your commute. And whether or not it should be paid work hours.

Cem: Which is hard because we’re probably not the target market for this but at the same time we do this.

Wayne: Okay, I’m just going to throw the stat out there. The stat is that 54% of commuters apparently use their train’s wifi to send work emails. A lot of the reasoning being, “Well, look, I don’t want to have to do any work when I get home so I can do it on the train. And it’s dead time anyway so I’m literally just moving from A to B.” In London a usual commute is usually about 45 minutes to an hour. So that’s a long time to be sat doing nothing. So it’s a good chance to be … it is a good productivity hack, to be fair, to do work on the Tube. All right?

Cem: Can I guess your stance?

Wayne: Go for it.

Cem: I think your stance is going to be, “Look, you have your contracted work hours. Anything outside of that I wouldn’t be touching my phone.”

Wayne: You know me so well. You know me so well. My main thing with this is like just have some goddamn self control. Like you’re not being paid so don’t work is as … I mean I’m really, really rigid with my time. Really rigid with my time. It’s a gift and a curse because sometimes my boss does get a little bit annoyed with me because I’m like, “No, it’s six o’clock, bye.”

Cem: There’s a few things here because I think nowadays … I think first of all people are thinking, “Shit, if I don’t do them tonight, don’t get it out the way, tomorrow there’s going to be even more and the rest of the workload.” I also think that nowadays, especially, I think … I’ve got a few friends and I see when we’re out playing pool in the pub and they’re like, “Oh sorry, just got to answer this email.” And I’m just like, “Oh.” So a lot of actually employers actually make it like part of the job that, “If I email you, I want a response.” And they set it up that way. But then again it comes back down to the setting, those barriers with the employers. So, “You know what? I don’t work this way. I can’t work this way.” Or if I am going to work this way and be available 24 hours, 24/7 for you then I want to be compensated for it.

Wayne: Yeah.

Cem: So it’s that sort of thing where the employee doesn’t want to look bad. Wants to always be people pleasing, a bit like our other episode. And so in that sense they let go of their actual time and give it away to their employer. And so it’s stressful as well. When you’re going home, you’re getting emails, you’re out of work or you can be sitting home in front of the TV, your phone pings off and suddenly all you’re thinking about is, “Shall I see to that? Or shall I carry on watching this and chatting to my girlfriend or my whatever, my husband or whatever?” So it’s actually very, very damaging as well.

Wayne: I think so. And yeah, I mean for me all this comes down to self control. I, personally, I might be a little bit controversial here, but I don’t think that if a worker is choosing to use their commute to send emails, I don’t think that that is something that they should be paid for because they’ve made that choice. If, however, it is part of their boss’s expectations and it is actually part of their boss’s expectations as opposed to-

Cem: You’re still currently working.

Wayne: Yeah. As opposed to an assumption that that is still the boss’s expectations then yes, they should be paid. But if it is the worker’s choice to do it, on their commute, then that’s their choice. I just think … I almost think it’s a little bit soft to be saying, “Well look, I’ve decided I’m doing my emails on the Tube so can you pay me some more?” Whereas if the boss has said, “Well, look if I email you at nine o’clock at night, I want a response by 10 o’clock at night.”

Cem: Yeah, exactly.

Wayne: Then the boss should be paying you. It’s about … it’s all about boundaries here.

Cem: It’s all a give and take as well. Because if your boss is someone that says to you, “Look come in a bit late and when you’re going home on your commute can you bang out those emails?” It’s kind of like you’ve got to create that conversation with the employer to make sure that you’re not being taken advantage of.

Wayne: Yeah, my day job … for my day job I’m a PA. Right? If there is any job which really warrants 24/7 access from the boss it’s a PA. And it does not happen. And it doesn’t happen because I set up very solid boundaries very early on. I said, “Look, if I’m not in the office or I’m not scheduled to be working for you, I’m not working for you.” It’s as simple as that. My boss is so apologetic if ever she texts me on the weekend. So apologetic. I’m her PA. She’s like, “Sorry to be texting you at this time but I just need this sorting.” And if it’s not a big deal, then yeah, no problem.

Cem: I’m surprised you even open it Wayne.

Wayne: Well, one of the things I was going to say that actually if you do lack the self control, one thing I would do, one thing I would use my commute for is to go into my settings on my phone, go into the notifications section, turn off emails, turn off text messages from certain people. All work related notifications, turn them off. Will take you five, ten minutes of your commute. And then you won’t be disturbed until you get on your commute the next day and sit in that commute and turn them all back on again.

Cem: And then suddenly that flurry of hundreds of emails coming through.

Wayne: Yeah. And yeah, it will be stressful initially but I’ll tell you what, you’ll be in such a much better place because you won’t be out with your mates up the pub and hearing your phone ping and then suddenly going-

Wayne: … “Oh shit, I hope that’s not work. Oh what does my boss want? Oh for god’s sake so and so hasn’t done this and then I have to sort this out now. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And yeah, of course, there are some jobs that it is a requirement. But if it is a requirement then you should be getting paid for it anyway.

Cem: Yeah.

Wayne: There’s no way that if my boss who I do the PA work for wanted 24/7 access to me, there’s no way she’d be-

Cem: That comes at a price.

Wayne: Yeah, there’s no way she’d be paying me what she’s paying me that’s for sure. No way. No way whatsoever. So yeah, I mean in a way I’m sympathetic because I understand that there are some jobs that require it. But in other ways I’m kind of like is this just lack of self control from people? And people pleasing?

Cem: Yeah I really don’t think it’s … I think it’s less the self control thing. I think it is the people pleasing mostly. And I think it is just not having that conversation with your boss and know where you stand, what their expectations are. But also being willing to say, “Do you know what? This is how I want to work and I don’t accept this after work is done.” But if you’re going to do a job that requires you to be available 24/7, yes you should be rewarded for that in the right way. And I think that kind of probably sums it up really.

Wayne: But also if it’s not a requirement from your job, one thing I would really encourage you to do. And it’s one thing that I do all the time with clients from various areas. Is just … you kind of have to, and this is going to be a controversial thing to say and people are going to be like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe you just said that.” But you kind of sometimes have to treat people like pets. Right?

Wayne: In the sense of like we are animals we do get programmed by behavior. Right? So if somebody sends you an email and you respond instantly what you’re doing is training them to expect an instant response. Whereas what I will often do is I will see an email and I will sit on it for a while. Because I don’t want them to assume that they have 24/7 access to me. And it’s why I don’t like text messages. Because text messages come with a social contract that they are instant and that they should be replied to within probably half an hour. And I don’t like work being done by text because I feel the pressure to respond.

Wayne: So just train … because I do have a theory that for most people when their boss emails them out of hours that they put the pressure on themselves to email the boss back that night.

Cem: Because it’s boss.

Wayne: Because it’s the boss, right?

Cem: Yeah.

Wayne: And of course, they do have a little bit of influence over your life and your lifestyle. So of course, you’re like, “Well, I need to deal with that.” But actually if it’s not an expectation of your job, just wait until you’re in work the next day before you email back. And just see if there are any repercussions. If there are repercussions, then maybe reassess. But if it’s fine then you know that there’s where the boundary is.

Cem: I’ve been getting a lot more of those ping backs when you email someone that say, “Thanks for your email. I’m currently doing blah, blah, blah but I look at emails at 1:00 and 4:00 PM and I’ll get back to you at that point.”

Wayne: Yeah, that’s another great thing to do actually is what I do at my job. Is I’ll come in and I’ll look at emails in the morning. And then I will put aside my final hour of work to look at emails again. So I will look at emails for about half an hour, 45 minutes in the morning. Tick everything off my to do list and then email as I need to. But I won’t actually look at the inbox then until the end of the day.

Cem: Yeah, I think that’s a good method.

Wayne: It’s a very, very healthy thing to do. But I just want to touch on one thing as well before we wrap up. This links to an episode that we did quite a while back. A few years ago now I think it was. The French introduced a new law which was the right to disconnect.

Cem: Oh yeah.

Wayne: And I think then we did an episode on it. Go back and listen to that. Because I feel like this article that was a BBC article if I’m correct?

Cem: Correct.

Wayne: About commuters, emails and stuff should be paid for. It was a law basically saying, “Look, in France, workers have the right to not email back.” And I do think that this article is a step in the direction of that. Because I think I said in that episode it’s only a matter of time before we take it up. It will be a while because we’re Brits and we’re workaholics but I feel like it’s a step in that direction. And I think it will come eventually.

If you want any questions answered, or if you have any ideas for anythings you’d like us to address, send us an email, Wayne@powerfulnonsense.com or Cem@powerfulnonsense.com, or you can look us up on the Twitterz @PN_Podcast, and we will take it into consideration. And also, please do leave us a nice little review on the old iTunes. It really does help get the word out there for the show. Five stars or more, greatly appreciated.