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Wayne: Today, we’re going to be talking about those tuition fees. The headline is from the Beeb, ‘Tuition Fees Could Be Cut to 6,500 Pounds But Higher for Science Subjects.’ This has been bandied about for quite a while actually and I do recall that Prime Minister Theresa May had actually said that she was now reviewing the tuition fee structure because of this idea of value for money with a degree, which is something that we have talked about loads in the … God, how long have we been doing this podcast, now? Nearly five years, dude.
Cem: Well, I actually got a notification the other day and it popped up and it was someone we’d interviewed and it said, “Four years ago you posted this.” I was like, “Oh, my God. That was one-
Wayne: Oh, my God.
Cem: … of our interviews.”
Wayne: Oh, my God. Yeah, nearly five years we’ve been doing this podcast and we talked about tuition fees a lot and, particularly, degrees and the value of degrees. In fact, it’s one of the things that started the podcast off in many ways was that idea of whether or not degrees are worth their weight in pounds.
Cem: My biggest worry with this though straight away is just if people start thinking, “Well, that’s a cheaper degree, why is it 6,500 in that uni, but they’re charging 9,000 or how comes that science course is 12,000? Does that mean it’s better value? Should I just do science instead?” I think it’s very hard to put a price tag on education. Yes, there’s that sort of general basis. I think that’s what Theresa May was trying to look at. Say, “Okay, you’ve done a drama course or you’ve done a media production course. What’s your average earnings or what’s the average earning in that field? Let’s tie up to that.” I think that’s a very black and white kind of way of doing it.
Wayne: There are two sides to this argument because, again, we’ve talked about this a lot and I agree with that worry. Because, as you were saying before we hit record, degrees and what not are now such a commodity that the fact that everybody’s paying the same price, expensive price, for a degree that varies in value depending on subject and where you studied, just doesn’t make any God damn sense. It just doesn’t.
Wayne: On an economical level, it makes no sense whatsoever and it hasn’t made any sense whatsoever for a very long time since well before we went to uni. It’s just the pressure’s been put on since tuition fees have been raised and it’s made everybody go, “Well, hang on a minute. Does this really make sense anymore?” And, the answer is no. If you think about what, and, again, we’ve talked about this from when we were talking about the future of universities several episodes ago, what universities are pushing as their value proposition is, “You come to university, you will be more employable.” That’s what they’re pushing these days.
Cem: Which, again, is backed up by evidence that actually people that go to university are likely to earn more in their career.
Wayne: Yes, but it’s also very, very skewed stats because yes, that might be true for some subjects, but the fact that I’ve gone to university and trained as an actor does not make me more employable as an actor. Okay, maybe it does, but it doesn’t make me … If you look to my average earnings compared to somebody that did, let’s say, physics, then there is no comparison really or somebody that did computer science. There is absolutely no comparison-
Cem: I’m sure it’s not.
Wayne: … and yet, my degree is valued in monetary terms at the same level as somebody that has done computer science.
Cem: Yeah. I think as well, obviously, not everybody sticks to what they did in uni, which means you have a degree which means you’ve gone for a process of education which people value not just in doing acting, but also if you went into an office job they’ll say, “Well, you’ve got a degree-
Wayne: Which is what a degree’s originally for.
Cem: Yeah.
Wayne: … was more to say, “Yes, I can self-educate and I can go through that process.” Whereas now, they’ve become a badge of employability.
Cem: I’m just quite interested to see how this advertising goes now when you see universities discounting offers on their university courses, but also, I feel like this could actually open it up to the online education. I don’t see why this can’t be accredited online. If someone says, “You know what? If you’re going 6,500, what if I told you, you can do open university degree for 2,500?” Now, all of a sudden, all universities are like, “Holy shit. What do we do?” Because of this, not everybody has the same rate, it means that now the competition has changed her monetary value. Before it was for the brand of the university is what you pay for-
Wayne: Well, it would be certainly very interesting to see because I was thinking about online education and the rise of online courses and this, that, and the other, I think it’s going to be very interesting to see how much industries just start adopting an industry standard certificate or qualification because most degrees don’t require a lot of practical things. It’s a lot of seminars and a lot of discussion and a lot of submission of academic work. I think we could start seeing an absolute revolution that’s happened organically online that actually puts the universities in an even weaker position.
Cem: Well, that’s what I mean. If you can get these teachers and these lecturers to become influencers in that or knowledge basis in those specific subjects, then suddenly, that person who teachers science is one of the top in their game and he says, “You know what? I’m accredited to give out degrees based on what I know. I have my own platform and I’ve brought in two other people that I’m happy to work along who are also lecturers.” Then, suddenly, you’ve got actually you’ve got this online, “This is the science guys you go to if you want to get your online degree. “They’re good at what they do and you’re paying for them because you know they are teaching at the best level and maybe they’re been already at Harvard or Oxford or these other universities.
Cem: People say, “Wait a minute. I’d rather pay for half and learn from those guys through their system then go directly through the universities.” I think that’s the biggest fears for universities right now because they see just a clear way of showing that actually, yes, university degrees are not as valued as they used to be. People know that they’re not getting the value they expect to get. Again, it’s not down to the university as such. Of course, there’s a lot down to what the student does once they graduate, but, at the same time, it’s something that people know is ridiculous and totally needs a massive reform. I think this is just the beginnings of something that’s a massive shake-up thus to come.
Wayne: Yeah, I was just about to say, to me, this is a clear sign that the government is now looking at universities, looking at the education system and realizing how flawed it has become.
Cem: I also wonder whether this is just even a monetary thing for them thinking, “Well, actually we don’t have to loan as much to students ’cause at the moment what we can see is that we’re not getting much of it paid back. Actually, if we reduce the price, it means we’re actually loaning less,” which could even be another reason for why they’re doing it.
Wayne: Yeah, potentially, but then I don’t know if they were thinking in those terms then they probably wouldn’t have ever raised it in the first place.
Cem: Well, I think their initial thought was, “If we raise it, less people will do it.” Actually, what happened was more people started doing it and they’re thinking, “Oh, shit.”
Wayne: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what I said from the off when they raised tuition fees to all of my student and graduate friends that were up in arms about it. I said, “The reason that they’ve done that is not necessarily because they want to screw people over. It’s because the degree commodity has gotten so out of control that they need to find a way to give degrees value again,” because degrees, at that time and still now, don’t really hold much value anymore.
Wayne: Every person I know that is a student now it’s like they’ll get a degree and then it’s like, “Right, and then I do a masters now.” It’s the conversation that seems to happen. My bother’s considering doing a Ph.D. now.
Cem: Well, that seems a bit a common thing. Before that was like, “Wow, you’re taking it to the next level.” I actually know a few people that have got their Ph.D.s and we’ve mentioned it many times before, it’s education inflation and that’s what, I think, they’re trying to stem with the higher rate and then they’re like, well, that didn’t work. Now, it’s like, “Well put it back down because we’re loaning too much money.”
Wayne: Of course, the flip side is that they will still be loaning more money anyway because actually by reducing it down they’re going to increase people going to university theoretically. I understand the concerns, but I do think it is right now to start making the degree thing competitive. I very much believe in a free market economy. I am a capitalist as you are as well. We’ve come out on that on the podcast before, but I think that’s what the education system needs now. It does need, not necessarily on a school-level, but certainly on a university-level because these universities are being run as businesses anyway. If you’re going to run them as businesses, then at least give the consumer the opportunity to reap the benefits of free market in the university space.
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