Listen to the Episode

 

Wayne: Today, we’re talking … We’re going back to our roots a little bit, I feel.

Cem: Very techy.

Wayne: It feels, well, not just techy, but employability.

Cem: Makes you know what Powerful Nonsense is all about.

Wayne: Yeah. That’s kind of where we started. We’re combining the two today. We’re going to be talking about job interviews and robots, or specifically, job interviews conducted by robots, and whether or not it’s good, bad, what we think and all that jazz.

Cem: Is it ethical?

Wayne: Is it ethical?

Cem: Who knows?

Wayne: So we’ve gone on record many, many, many times and said over the years that your CV’s not really as important anymore, because nobody checks the CV, and usually if it is checked, it’s usually scanned through a computer and analyzed through a computer to whittle people down rather than-

Cem: Count the keywords.

Wayne: That’s it.

Cem: Pick out those A grades and whatever else.

Wayne: But now it would seem that we’re bypassing the CV entirely, and even bypassing the job interview entirely. I mean, a computer analyzed job interviews now through AI and machine learning and stuff.

Cem: Although I guess the system could just see a CV first. Then say, “Okay, that CV scanned is okay. Now let’s send them the AI interviewee.”

Wayne: Yeah. Although it would be pretty good if it was like that, and you could get almost an instant-

Cem: Decision.

Wayne: … response.

Cem: You send your CV off. It goes. Someone looks good. Instantly get a reply.

Wayne: You get a link. Follow this link. Do your job interview. The AI analyses it, and then goes, “Actually, no mate. Have you tried McDonald’s?”

Cem: So basically this was based on an article that I found on the Wall Street Journal, and it’s got a great video actually on the language rule.

Wayne: A mini doc.

Cem: A mini doc. It’s about 10 minutes long. It’s definitely worth watching. It’s a bit scary at times, but basically in this documentary, the guy goes through the process of actually having this interview with an AI through the screen. He’s sitting down with a web cam. He’s got his audio mike on, and literally, this AI is asking questions. AI being like a sort of a computer virtual person on the screen, who is conducting the interview. And he’s answering back what seems like very normal questions that you will get in an interview.

Cem: And as he works his way through it, what you realize after he’s finished his interview is just how much information is actually being absorbed. And I’m not just talking what he’s saying. I mean, they go massively into these micro expressions, which is kind of scary. We’ve read a lot. We obviously had a few interviews with people who are like these neuro scientists, or these scientists who understand exactly how facial expressions kind of represent whether you’re lying, whether you’re honest, whether you’re angry, all these things. And it seems like all these data points are now being picked up and pushed into this way of employing people.

Wayne: And so what they do is they analyze. They record video. They kind of do like almost emotion capture type thing where they put all of the data points and they map all those across the face, like edges of your mouth, the-

Cem: Eyebrows.

Wayne: … eyebrows, and all that sort of stuff. And then they analyze it based off of existing employees of whatever company’s using their software. Is that right? Or is that … Was that a different one?

Cem: I’m not too sure. Obviously, they know why someone looks angry. They’re frowning and the eyebrows go down. So they probably got a lot of data points. And then maybe the system helps you to hire people that have the similar kind of facial expressions.

Cem: But another point that we didn’t mention is actually it is actually picking up the tone of your voice. And obviously, Wayne would know, probably. There’s certain tones of voices that sound like you know what you’re talking about, or you’re lying, or you’re hesitant. And so there’s probably a lot to be taken from actually just hearing someone’s voice.

Wayne: Most definitely. So, we’re kind of moving into this world now where it’s like the whole job interview is being down digitally, rather than face to face. I experienced this as an actor anyway, with auditions being done by self tapes, rather than going into the audition room. And one of the big arguments is that it removes human bias, which I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or not. Like, they’re like, “Yeah, well we’ve got rid of human bias.” And it’s like, yeah, but-

Cem: But now you’ve boiled us down to a bunch of numbers.

Wayne: Yeah, and you’re the one that’s got to work with the guy. Sure, his micro expressions might say you’ll get on with him very well, but will you actually get on with him very well?

Cem: Does he just have friendly eyebrows?

Wayne: Yeah. And so yeah, there are obviously cases where human bias is good to remove that, such as things like sexism, racism, all that-

Cem: Discrimination.

Wayne: … sort of stuff. Discrimination, generally, yeah. And also, you know, whether or not the person that’s coming into the interview likes golf and you like golf, and so therefore, you bond over the golf. And actually, that then influences the entire interview.

Wayne: But you know, I’ve won many jobs based on the fact that … Well I assume, they like me. And less on actually skillset and ability, and you know, whether or not my smile is at like 45 degrees, versus 43 degrees. Yeah. I mean-

Cem: It’s a bit worrying, because obviously, when you go to school and stuff, they teach you what you should say in an interview. And it’s going to get to the point where it’s like, okay, well now you have to think about all these extra things, how your voice sounds when this robot interviews you. Obviously, there’s huge benefits for why this stuff works for a company. It’s just that you’re getting this quick information. You don’t have to take your day out of work to go sit down in a room where you’ve got to have 20 people come in throughout the day, which is exhausting.

Cem: And by the end of it, you’ve got a bias, because you’re just like, I just want this done. I don’t care about the last person.

Cem: But then, at the same time, I just feel like is this another layer of fucking like, we’re moving so far away from our human nature of like you say, the one on one interview, and actually liking someone for similarities. There are the benefits of the human bias being taken out, but then, I feel like this is going maybe a step further, which is a bit scary then. I think you’re now boiling people down into these tiny little assets of their being, and it does feel like you’re not really treating them as a human.

Cem: In this documentary, the guy ends up scoring like a 37%. He was just like, “Well, does that mean I wouldn’t be seen?” He’s like, “Well, they might look at a couple of your questions, but more than likely companies are busy, and if they know they’ve got 1,000 interviews that got done digitally, 10 of them are at 94% rate, you’ll be like, well, forget the rest. Let’s just try these guys out.”

Cem: And again, I’m pretty sure the system probably doesn’t work for every model of business. It’s probably not going to tell whether you’re a good carpenter.

Wayne: And it’s not going to work for every type of human being either.

Cem: No, because some people are way better confident in camera. Because as well, I’m sure there’s people out there that are very intimidated when you walk into a room of three humans staring at you, and now they’re all grilling you with questions. And I can imagine probably you might find it easier doing a video audition, because it’s kind of like it’s controlled. You can-

Wayne: No, I hate it.

Cem: Oh, well, because I know because-

Wayne: I hate it.

Cem: I used to hate being in front of people in interviews, and you think, shit, there’s three people staring at me. Whereas with a video interview, before, like I remember when I was applying for a BBC apprenticeship after uni, or something like that. It was a graduation thing. I had to send in a video of me talking about an idea for an episode. And I felt like actually, that’s better because I can record this six times and then I can get it perfect, and then send that off.

Cem: But then in this case, it’s kind of like you’ve got that pressure taken away, because you haven’t got the humans there. But then now, not everybody likes talking on camera and is confident on camera. And then now you know that they’re going to be tracking certain aspects of you. And you’ll be like, okay am I moving my face correctly? Am I moving my face too much? Do I sound like I mean what I’m saying?

Cem: And it’s just a lot more stress on people. I don’t know. It feels a bit dehumanizing for me.

Wayne: Yeah. No, I’m with you. I’m with you completely. There’s a little bit at the end of this kind of mini documentary that kind of came up as well, which is where we’re at now in the mainstream, and particularly things with social media and stuff, and whether or not it’s actually ethical to look at social media as a way of judging whether or not you should hire someone even though that is not officially part of the interviewing process. As an employer, Cem, I wanted your take.

Cem: Whether I would-

Wayne: What do you think? Whether or not you think it is ethical, as an employer yourself, whether or not you think it is ethical to base, or at least have your choice of employees influenced by their social media profiles?

Cem: I think in the hiring process, I don’t think it’s good really, because in this one, they were using people’s Twitter streams to kind of figure out what kind of character that was based on the kind of articles they might share, or the quotes they might share. And I think one lady was saying, “Well, at the end of the day, it’s in public. It’s in the public. You’re allowed to do that. It’s available.”

Cem: But I think it’s a little bit kind of snoopy, and I’m a bit against it, because I don’t know. You’re not the same person in your family home as maybe the person you are on Twitter. And people do build these different personalities. And I think if we’re getting to the point where we’re judging people on 144 characters, which ain’t that anymore. I know you can do more on Twitter.

Wayne: 280 now.

Cem: Exactly. 280 characters. Then, something like that. But then they also said it’s an interesting stat actually, a very high proportion of, was it Fortune 500 companies were already using this technology?

Wayne: The AI.

Cem: Yeah.

Wayne: Yeah, which was quite scary, actually.

Cem: And again though, I know I’ve worked with young people before, and they’re always saying, when these companies are trying to support young people to get employment, it’s like, be careful what you post on social media. Because probably, these companies have got something. They just run your name. It knows your profiles, run your email. And then it says, “Well I’ve got all this available, which is public.” Whether that’s your Facebook, your Instagram. And it will kind of bring down the kind of character you are.

Cem: And so unfortunately, I do believe this is the world we’re moving in with the data available. People are going to use it. With time being a massive, something we need to kind of protect, of course, companies are going to start using this technology. And it’s just for me, it’s a bit scary for a few people who are going into this kind of employment world where no longer are you going to be sitting and starting to build an actual one to one relationship with a potential boss in the future. But instead, you’re being very much judged on your performance on camera to a robot. It just feels a bit scary for me.

Wayne: Yes. No, I’m with you. I’m in agreement completely, 110%.

Cem: That’s good to hear.

Wayne: Let us know what you think.

Cem: Yeah. We’ll show the link to the documentary, and it’s got some other little stats in there. And actually, you can go and see the type of technology. I think it was like Deep Sense, or something it was called, or something along those lines.

Wayne: Oh very good, Cem. Very good, very good.

Cem: Yeah.

Wayne: It was Deep Sense, yes.

Cem: Was it?

Wayne: It was.

Cem: Oh good. There you go.

Wayne: Yeah, but check it out. Let us know what you think. Hit us up on Twitter @PN_Podcast.

Cem: Have you actually been interviewed by a robot before?

Wayne: Oh yeah, that would be cool. If so many companies are doing it, surely someone somewhere has gone through an interview.

Cem: I guess the good thing is at least you’ll get like an automated reply saying, “You didn’t make it.” Better than a human waiting to hear nothing back.

Wayne: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. There are pros, I suppose.

If you want any questions answered, or if you have any ideas for anythings you’d like us to address, send us an email, Wayne@powerfulnonsense.com or Cem@powerfulnonsense.com, or you can look us up on the Twitterz @PN_Podcast, and we will take it into consideration. And also, please do leave us a nice little review on the old iTunes. It really does help get the word out there for the show. Five stars or more, greatly appreciated.